On killing child molesters being “un-Christian”

Posted on June 20, 2012 by KG

Please take the time to read this post and tell me if I’m alone in finding it slightly creepy. When did being Christian come to mean a man shouldn’t act in rage and disgust when his children are not just threatened, but in the process of being abused?  Have modern-day Christians lost their manhood?  If so, I want no part of it.

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81 Responses to On killing child molesters being “un-Christian”

  1. Andrei says:
    June 20, 2012 at 20:17

    My head was spinning after reading that.

    When I first heard that story, I did as most parents would, put myself in the shoes of that father and I strongly suspect that the outcome would have been not too different, maybe not dead but very unwell for sure.

  2. KG says:
    June 20, 2012 at 20:23

    I’m no longer a parent, Andrei but I know my first responsibility is to protect my wife (and my children if they were still around.)
    I would kill. I would kill at the time, or a week or ten years later in revenge, but I would kill.
    And be happy to answer for it in the hereafter.

  3. KG says:
    June 20, 2012 at 20:25

    “The law” has nothing useful to say to me on the subject of protecting my loved one. Nothing.

  4. Andrei says:
    June 20, 2012 at 20:29

    To tell the truth KG, if I came across a 47 year old man with his pants down on top of a screaming five year old, it wouldn’t have to be one of my own for me to fly off the handle, any random child being raped would be enough to enrage me – I could easily kill in those circumstances I’m quite sure.

  5. Glenn says:
    June 20, 2012 at 20:38

    “or a week or ten years later in revenge, but I would kill.”

    That does at least clarify things.

    • KG says:
      June 20, 2012 at 20:50

      I’m in the process of answering you in your blog, Glenn. And your avatar certainly does clarify things around these parts. Look at the notice at the top of this blog’s sidebar.
      And you call yourself a “Christian conservative”, with that murdering bastard for an avatar??
      Don’t tell me–it’s a postmodern ironic statement, right?

    • kowtow says:
      June 21, 2012 at 12:40

      I detest that picture.
      Dumb shit students and dope shops display it all over.
      Why glorify a commie who killed peasansts and Catholics?

      • Ciaron says:
        June 21, 2012 at 13:01

        FFS sake, it’s apicture of him, not Che.

        • KG says:
          June 21, 2012 at 13:03

          Riiight…..wearing a beret with a teensy kumbaya red dot on the front, eh?
          Even if it is a pic of him, leaving aside the vanity of that, why would anybody go to such pains to display an avatar that’s indistinguishable from the numerous Che’ posters? Hmm?

          • Ciaron says:
            June 21, 2012 at 13:08

            look
            compare

            You don’t have to be a rocket scientist :roll:
            why would anybody go to such pains to display an avatar that’s indistinguishable from the numerous Che’ posters? Hmm?

            You’d have to ask him that.

        • kowtow says:
          June 21, 2012 at 15:46

          doesn’t matter what it actually is…..it’s a depiction that deliberatly takes us to the murdering scum and that is clearly the intention. the intent is what matters.

          • Darin says:
            June 21, 2012 at 22:12

            I would not go walking around looking like Che anywhere in the southern half of the US,one could be the victim of a mistake since he’s not very popular among people who fled his murdering ways :gunner

  6. KG says:
    June 20, 2012 at 20:59

    You are not welcome in here, Glenn. Nausea-inducing is the politest term I can think of for you.

  7. GunRights4US says:
    June 20, 2012 at 21:10

    When he referred to the dead man as the alledged molestor – I stopped right there. The guy was found IN THE ACT! His pants were down around his ankles! The child was hysterical and obviously had been violated! If that doesn’t justify an immediate violent response, I don’t know what does. Being a Christian doesn’t mean you have to be a milquetoast.

  8. KG says:
    June 20, 2012 at 21:16

    Guns, to an academic, being men makes us barbarians. One should be nuanced and above all that messy vengeance and physical protection business. A few million years of evolution can be simply bypassed by a few hours of discussion among academics who’ve decided they know better than our DNA and commonsense. Ardrey’s “killer ape” is to be a killer no more……didn’t you attend the lecture?

  9. Glenn says:
    June 20, 2012 at 21:18

    The person in the avatar is actually me. And I’m not advocating the killing here…

    • KG says:
      June 20, 2012 at 21:22

      Yeah, sure. And the red spot on the beret is a boy scout badge, right?
      I referred to a “murdering” bastard. Not all killing is murder.
      Now, go away.

  10. KG says:
    June 20, 2012 at 21:36

    “alleged” Guns?
    “A witness told law enforcement that Flores was seen forcibly carrying the girl to a secluded area, the statement said. When the girl’s dad found out, he began calling her name, and when he heard her screams, he moved in.
    ……When emergency medical personnel arrived at the scene, Flores’ pants and underwear were down, and his genitals were exposed, the statement said. All the witnesses’ statements corroborated the father’s story, the release said…”
    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/06/19/texas-beating-death-girl-alleged-molester-is-ruled-homicide/?test=latestnews#ixzz1yKfVjgxc
    Only a dolt would find enough shuffle-space to describe the deceased as the “alleged” perp.
    Or perhaps the dolt would have liked to see the case go to a jury in a liberal-majority county………..

    • GunRights4US says:
      June 20, 2012 at 22:32

      Exactly my point. There is a time and place for use of the word “alleged”, and this situation was not one of those times or places.

      Reading thru that blog and that specific post reminded me of my general distrust and disregard for those who style themselves as academics. The designation Phd typically means “piled higher and deeper”

  11. david says:
    June 20, 2012 at 22:07

    This Idiot does not speak for Christians, he is a “fool”. I am a Christian and that molester would surely be just as dead if I were in that fathers place. The idiot blogger takes a few passages from the Bible and twists them to his purpose.

    • Anonymous says:
      June 20, 2012 at 23:08

      Please have the manners to use a nick.Your comment will be most welcome then. (KG)

  12. The Gantt Guy says:
    June 20, 2012 at 22:09

    KG, your new friend is confused, to say the least. First, the girl’s father did not sit back and plot revenge. He saw his daughter being (or about to be) brutalised and he protected her. His intention was not to kill the molester, but to stop him hurting his daughter.

    His anger towards the molester would fall directly into the category of “righteous”, and his actions in protecting his daughter blameless. Any one of us would have done the same, or similar.

    Here’s an example of “righteous” anger, from someone who *never* sinned:

    “And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves…”

    (Matthew 21:12, KJV)

    He overthrew their tables and cast them all out. I’m guessing (as I wasn’t there) but I’d say he didn’t walk up to them and politely ask them to leave; he chucked a pretty large hissy fit and likely gave one or two of them a kick in the pants as he threw them out of the temple.

    Remember also that God ordered entire peoples wiped from the planet (e.g. in Gomorrah). So God ain’t anti-killing, just anti-murdering.

    I suspect, KG, your reference to “murdering bastard” is too … nuanced … for your new friend. Perhaps you should refer to him instead as “Comrade Che”.

    • Kris K says:
      June 21, 2012 at 11:40

      Gantt, I like John’s account better:

      Joh 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
      Joh 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables;
      Joh 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise.

      I’m guessing some of these defilers had some pretty good welts and not a few deep and bleeding cuts.

      As a Christian I would have no qualms about killing in a just war against the onslaught of evil tyranny … we may get the opportunity to do just that in the not too distant future …

      The same goes in the above cited case!

  13. Darin says:
    June 20, 2012 at 22:15

    So here we have a little girl who assuming she would have survived the attack would have been scarred for life (probably still will be)along with all the baggage that gets drug along with that and we are supposed to feel sorry for the pervert sick bastard who was raping her? Please,some people are just stupid.

    What this creep did was not just defile her body,he stole her childhood and for that matter her life and for that he should have died.The father having any remorse for that piece of human filth shows he is more of a Christian than myself.I would have killed the bastard and not thought twice about.I would have more remorse for a turd I stepped in and scrapped off my boot than him.

    Just so all the “Christians”feel better he was acquitted by a Grand Jury yesterday,case closed.

    But what would Jesus do?
    “If anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a large millstone were hung around his neck and he were drowned at the bottom of the sea.” Nuff said.

  14. Diamond Mair says:
    June 21, 2012 at 04:06

    Darin, you stole my Biblical quote of the day :mrgreen:

    As a survivor of molestation, {and being blamed for the molestation, when I told my mother!}, as a former anti-death penalty type, I can tell you here & now: When I held MY daughter in my arms, had anyone posed a threat to her, be it sexual, emotional, physical, I would have willingly killed them with my bare hands, though a semi-automatic, full-magazine firearm would be preferable. My daughter is now in her early 30’s, but I’d STILL do all I could to protect her.

    ‘Glenn’ seems to be one who’s spent his life in the rarefied air of academia, probably in either a gated or well-patrolled area, where his exposure to the sordid underside of life has been when HE chose to play ‘Lady Bountiful’ …………………………. nice work if you can get it. But for the rest of me, in the real world, I’ll keep my beauteous Bersa nearby, thank you very much ………………………….. :gunner

    Semper Fi’
    DM

    • Diamond Mair says:
      June 21, 2012 at 04:07

      Sorry, that should read “……………. but for me, in the real world ……………….”

      Semper Fi’
      DM

      • Ciaron says:
        June 21, 2012 at 08:42

        As I say below, I have been following SHTMLF for a while now, and I think you will find that if you take more than a cursory look, it will be apparent that he is NOT one who’s spent his life in the rarefied air of academia, but one who has done whatever it takes to provide for his family.and exisits primarily outside academia.

        • KG says:
          June 21, 2012 at 09:11

          True or not, Ciaron, his qualification is the product of academia. He didn’t get it by bucking that system and his thinking is shaped by it.
          But I’m really no interested in attacking him personally, (although I concede it’s happened) rather the mindset that seems to ignore harsh realities in the terrible real-life situations some people find themselves in.

  15. KG says:
    June 21, 2012 at 05:35

    Thanks guys. (And you know that includes you, DM :smile: )
    I feel a lot better, a lot cleaner after reading your thoughts on this. Bless you.

  16. Ciaron says:
    June 21, 2012 at 07:25

    I read Glenn’s blog, I listen to his podcasts and I have learned a lot from him.

    It seems to me that:

    1/ KG is making an argument for how the Father bahaved and the reality of finding oneself in that situation.

    2/ Glenn is making an argument about how Christians should react to the event, specifically with regard to comments Christians make.

    • KG says:
      June 21, 2012 at 07:41

      hmmmmm…..fair comment, but only partly true. I don’t intend to go through the exchange blow-by-blow, but the scenario the comments are based on is distorted by him and yes, he does make some comments and assumptions about how the father behaved.

      • Darin says:
        June 21, 2012 at 11:28

        From a Biblical view the Father is ultimately responsible for the safety and well being of his wife and children and his responsibility to God is protect them even if it comes to taking a life or giving up his own.

        I also have a problem with people,even my fellow followers of Christ who assume that Jesus was a pacifist.Where is the historical data for that assumption?We have at least two examples,three really that give evidence that he was not.

        The first two we have touched on to day,his dealing with the money changers in the Temple and the Millstone example.

        There is also Luke 22:36-And he said unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet; and he that hath none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword.”

        Now just why would a supposed Pacifist tell his disciples to sell their Cloaks and buy Swords?

        • Ciaron says:
          June 21, 2012 at 11:48

          31 “Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift all of you as wheat. 32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”
          33 But he replied, “Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death.”
          34 Jesus answered, “I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me.”

          35 Then Jesus asked them, “When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?”
          “Nothing,” they answered.

          36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37 It is written: ‘And he was numbered with the transgressors’[a]; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment.”

          38 The disciples said, “See, Lord, here are two swords.”
          “That’s enough!” he replied.

          47 While he was still speaking a crowd came up, and the man who was called Judas, one of the Twelve, was leading them. He approached Jesus to kiss him, 48 but Jesus asked him, “Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?”

          49 When Jesus’ followers saw what was going to happen, they said, “Lord, should we strike with our swords?” 50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.

          51 But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed.

          I don’t disagree with you Darrin, I just think we need to be wary of presenting scripture in small pieces :cheers

  17. KG says:
    June 21, 2012 at 07:48

    I guess I’m just a little weary of people who may have never confronted real violence, real evil in their sheltered lives pontificating about those who do, and what those who do “should” have done.
    And if Christians applaud the fact that the father killed the perp, perhaps that says a lot about how people have become utterly fed up with a society that refuses to face and punish evil, a society that has progressively (pun intended) removed from us the right to protect our loved ones effectively.
    Fuck him and every other smarmy bastard who thinks we should sit back and endure evil, forgive evil or trust a corrupt State to fight evil.
    That’s not my idea of Christianity at all. Save it for the Anglicans.
    As for forgiveness………don’t get me started. :evil:

    • Ciaron says:
      June 21, 2012 at 08:28

      It seems clear to me that your comments are driven by a painful experience. As I consider you a dear friend I not provoke you and will leave the matter here.

  18. Lucia Maria says:
    June 21, 2012 at 08:44

    I think most of us can be grateful that we’ve never been in this sort of situation. I have no idea what I would do with absolute certainty, but, if it was my child, I would guess that extreme and overwhelming force would be the initial and instinctual response.

    A commenter on Glenn’s site said that any person in that sort of situation would not know if the rapist would then attack the person who interrupted him. Better to incapacitate first rather than wait to see what else the rapist would do.

    I doubt that that sort of rational thought was present in the father’s mind, however – it would have been all instinctual. Which is good, really, we need those instincts in very dangerous situations, otherwise only those who are trained to respond would be able to do anything to defend their loved ones.

    Glenn is trying to argue this from a position of hindsight and moral superiority, and as an intellectual exercise. I agree with some of his arguments that he makes in other posts on some topics; but in general, I find the way that he argues annoying and on most topics, I disagree completely with his position.

    So, on this topic, the only thing I can agree with is some of the sentiment he expresses against his fellow Christians; but reading his post again, I find myself somewhat annoyed with the mocking and superior tone he employs, and also exasperated with his artificial separation of events which would have occurred very quickly before rational thought returned for the father involved.

    • KG says:
      June 21, 2012 at 09:03

      “I find myself somewhat annoyed with the mocking and superior tone he employs, and also exasperated with his artificial separation of events which would have occurred very quickly before rational thought returned for the father involved.”
      Exactly, Lucia Maria.

      • Right Wing Theocrat says:
        June 21, 2012 at 23:45

        Lucia says it well.

        I’ll add that I think this fool has no children of his own.

        And if he does I feel sorry for them if they’re ever in this situation, their father will stand there and once the rapist is stopped, he’ll make small talk with the rapist, nice weather today right, did you catch the Mets game. Oh sorry sweetie, here’s a towel for the blood.

        No brain and no balls.

  19. KG says:
    June 21, 2012 at 09:17

    I just got an email from somebody who knows much, much more about Christianity than I could ever hope to, and he suggests that the original meaning of “though shalt not kill” was actually “thou shalt not murder”.
    Big difference….

    • The Gantt Guy says:
      June 21, 2012 at 11:33

      Yup. The modern interpretations have replaced “kill” with “murder”.

  20. Mistress Mara. says:
    June 21, 2012 at 10:05

    As a non-religious person, may I suggest that crimes and sins are not the same thing in general. A sin is a transgression of one’s god’s law whereas a crime is a transgression of the law of the land. If some religious people feel they should live by god’s standard alone, then, as long as they respect the secular view, they’re welcome to their views. So is the killing of this child molester a christian deed? I don’t care. The issue is purely polemical and an opportunity for pointy heads to clash. Would I have intended to kill him? Damm right.

  21. pinkofreezone says:
    June 21, 2012 at 10:17

    Before I was a Christian I had a girlfirend for 5 years who had been raped by her cousin from the age of 8 to 12.

    Her life was for all intent destroyed; she couldn’t live in one place more than 6 months, couldn’t maintain friendships, was depressed and suicidal, she often couldn’t sleep more than 2 hours a night and had trouble realise any truth about herself. My efforts to help “fix” her were ultimately completely wasted. I have to admit seeing the ravages done to her life I’ve mentally wished her rapist a slow, painful death.

    I certainly won’t be mourning the death of this paedophile.

    Was killing him a moral act? Probably not. Was it immoral? Definitely not, he didn’t even intend to kill the guy. So I think this is a case where justice has been done and of letting God sort out the details.

  22. KG says:
    June 21, 2012 at 10:20

    “So I think this is a case where justice has been done and of letting God sort out the details.”
    Yep, me too.

  23. Moist von Lipwig says:
    June 21, 2012 at 12:25

    “He stopped this man from abusing his daughter – and of course he stopped it successfully. Nobody was going to continue committing such an act after interrupted by the father. What then? What more could he do to stop the harm? Nothing, sadly. ”

    Nothing?
    I disagree, whether consciously or not, he has stopped this man from repeating his odious deeds on any other child, and for that he has my heartfelt thanks.

    • KG says:
      June 21, 2012 at 13:01

      Also, VonL, although he at the moment feels remorse for killing the man, in the long run I suspect the emotional damage will be less than if he felt for the rest of his life that he should have done more at the time than simply pull the perp off his daughter.
      Not to mention if he’d had to watch some liberal asshole of a judge hand down a soft sentence……

  24. Oswald Bastable says:
    June 21, 2012 at 13:07

    From a well- known movie:
    [Harry Callahan has to explain why he shot a man]
    Harry Callahan: Well, when an adult male is chasing a female with intent to commit rape, I shoot the bastard. That’s my policy.
    The Mayor: Intent? How did you establish that?
    Harry Callahan: When a naked man is chasing a woman through an alley with a butcher’s knife and a hard-on, I figure he isn’t out collecting for the Red Cross!
    [walks out of the room]
    The Mayor: He’s got a point.

  25. John says:
    June 21, 2012 at 14:28

    KG – You may have seen my post on Glenn’s blog – I think that he’s wrong. In the heat of the moment, I would have beaten the perp senseless, until I thought that the threat was gone. Given my training, it’s not an outside bet that he’d be killed. And I think that I’d be morally justified in doing so – as long as it was truly in the defense of my daughter and not retaliatory. It can be hard for those who have been blessed enough not to see the ugly in the world to see the full scope of an ugly situation.

    On the other hand, I fully support Glenn’s post and the questions he asks. Should we be glorifying the killing of ANYBODY? Even our worst enemies. We should always ask, “What would Christ want us to do?” Would he have us murder the perp in retaliation after the fact? Would he have celebrated the death of another? I think not.

    Sadly, the positions that I see above keep many from Christ. It kept me away for many years, and I am no liberal. Life isn’t about “being a good conservative Christian” – it’s about following Christ. In America, we’ve forgotten that. If this continues, secularists/athiests are going to win.

    • KG says:
      June 21, 2012 at 14:46

      Good comment, John. I’ve been trying very hard for a long time to reconcile the Christian position with the harsh realities of the world and sadly, I’ve reached the conclusion that I can’t really call myself a Christian.
      Because I believe in vengeance and I believe that some things really are–and should be–unforgivable.
      My Creator will no doubt make me answer for it.

      • John says:
        June 21, 2012 at 22:38

        That’s an honest reply. But I’d contend that, 1) Christ was no wimp, and I think that his truth stands even in the harshest of conditions. We don’t have to stand around holding hands and singing kumbaya – we can take up our arms and fight the injustices of the world (as I have done). But it cannot be out of vengeance or hate. Vengeance will eat a man’s soul from the inside. As the Godfather would say, “It’s not personal. It’s just business.” 2) If you’re hoping for worldly justice, you will always be disappointed. Christ has Hell waiting for guys like this.

      • pinkofreezone says:
        June 22, 2012 at 06:21

        I’ve been trying very hard for a long time to reconcile the Christian position with the harsh realities of the world and sadly, I’ve reached the conclusion that I can’t really call myself a Christian.

        If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord, you will be saved. It’s that simple. I often summarise this as, “Do you believe Jesus was who he claimed he was?”

        The rest is for philosophical, scientific and metaphysical debate.

    • oswald bastable says:
      June 21, 2012 at 15:12

      Personally, I would not be glorifiing anything. Killing the scum is simply a dirty job that needs to be done, like putting down a rabid dog.

  26. WebWrat says:
    June 21, 2012 at 15:29

    Punishment was due, punishment dealt.
    What the fuck religion has to do with it is a total mystery to me.

    I suppose Che Glenn would have stood and looked on, torn between the assault on the poor wee girl and his compassion for the poor rapist, doing nothing.

  27. KG says:
    June 21, 2012 at 15:53

    :mrgreen: About sums it up, Wrattus.

  28. Mistress Mara. says:
    June 21, 2012 at 16:41

    Web Wrat. I try to show respect to all “religions” except Islam. On point, I have to agree with your comment “What the fuck religion has to do with it is a total mystery to me.” As far as it goes, the comment is clear and simple. But individuals were once in a position to make sensible, albiet religious decisions on behalf of themselves or their neighbours. They are not now. A bloated, controlling government has taken control. I applaud the Texas decision against the liberal assholes in Govt who have publically denigrated local people .. using their vernacular as strikes against them.

    • Darin says:
      June 21, 2012 at 22:21

      Some lefty in some comment section somewhere that has an axe to grind against conservatives,especially Christian ones just tied the two together to stirr s— that’s all Mara.Same tactics they always use.

  29. Andrei says:
    June 21, 2012 at 16:51

    Where I stand on this is that what matters is the welfare of the little girl and her family – that is all that matters.

    What sort of message would it send to the little girl if her dad was punished for saving her from rape?

    Fortunately these rural Texans are imbued with good old fashioned Common Sense and dealt with the matter quickly and sensibly

  30. Rufus says:
    June 22, 2012 at 20:46

    Sorry, I’m a bit late to the party

    Flabbergasted at Glenn’s post. “Woulda, coulda, shoulda…” What purpose does that serve?

    Don’t know anything about him, but he comes across as a pontificating twat. Sorry, first impressions and all. (I find it irritating when anyone apart from a bona fide medical doctor introduces themselves as “Hi, I’m Dr. so and so…”… cf. Dr. Russel Norman… :censor ).

    As for this sad story – read about it a few days ago. No problem whatsoever with the father’s reaction. I hope I’d do the same. I wouldn’t aim to kill the guy, but would do what I could to protect my wife or child. As one of the commenters said – remove the threat any way necessary.

  31. KG says:
    June 22, 2012 at 20:51

    “Don’t know anything about him, but he comes across as a pontificating twat. ”
    My impression too, Rufus. :lol:
    Eric Hoffer is the only philosopher I ever read who came across as being worth more than a rubber piton. (and I’ve even waded through the dense and terminally boring “Critique Of Pure Reason” while in the process of looking for one)

  32. KG says:
    June 22, 2012 at 20:56

    But then, what would an uneducated non Doctor such as Wabbit know?

    • The Gantt Guy says:
      June 22, 2012 at 20:59

      We mere mortals are simply not qualified to comment, KG. we must leave that to our betters, such as the Harvard Professor Community-Organiser-In-Chief, or the Red Queen Union Hack Lawyer.

  33. KG says:
    June 22, 2012 at 21:02

    “the Red Queen Union Hack Lawyer.”
    :whoop Love it!

    There’s not much wisdom in the lot of ’em, is there? No wonder that word is so seldom heard…..

  34. KG says:
    June 22, 2012 at 21:08

    You cynic you!

  35. KG says:
    June 22, 2012 at 21:09

    One of my favourite quotes: “A cynic is what an idealist calls a realist”

  36. KG says:
    June 22, 2012 at 21:19

    That’s odd—it sounds like someone I know, too…… :cheers